Gridfolk: Interview with four

Focus on FontStructors | Ata Syed | August 23rd, 2021

This is a guest post from Ata Syed AKA thalamic and minimum, the fourth in a summer series, continuing the “Focus on Fontstructors” tradition of interviews with members of FontStruct’s designer community. Ata has been FontStructing since 2008.

Hi.

four painting intro

Imagine this interview is a painting. This painting. The result is the combination of the base layer with details layer on top. While both the layers are meaningful on their own, the experience of viewing them together as a single entity is greater than the sum of its parts.

The painting above is created by the artist Paul Bokslag—better known as four around FontStruct—and he will be the focus in this four-th interview of the Gridfolk 2021 series.

Connectivity and On The Dot by four. Illustration by Paul Bokslag.

Read on to find out how an artist’s mind works.

Base Layer

Tell us a bit about yourself. Where you live and work? What kind of training do you have? What do you do in everyday life beyond FontStructing?

I was born and raised in the Netherlands and moved to Ireland more than twenty years ago, after having studied in Leiden. I am a visual artist and designer and for many years I worked in an arts centre that I co-founded. In my job as a tutor and facilitator, I taught drawing, painting, printmaking, sculpture, and photography to inclusive groups of students and I was a facilitator in a supported studio. I am passionate about the creative process and love sharing that with others. I also worked for a children’s arts and health charity and currently I am juggling my time as a freelancer between my own arts practice, graphic design, giving workshops, mentoring and exhibition installs. When not at work, I enjoy spending time with my family and friends, making things with my hands, reading, playing games, canoeing, and going for long walks in the hills.

For a good few years, I had a healthy obsession with cutting paper. Starting with small, framed pieces, these grew into large scale space filling installations. I did not see the connection with type design until I accidentally used one of my fonts for an exhibition poster and realised that it is all visually related. More recently I have rediscovered the joy of painting and working on murals. I am interested in positive and negative space, and it plays a role in a lot of my work, both two- and three-dimensional.

“An Exhibition of Papercuts” poster by Paul Bokslag

How did you become interested in type and typography? What was your first experience of font design?

I have designed a lot of publications, brochures, flyers, signs, posters, and logos, using Adobe software and I was always interested in the visual aspect of letters, but I never had a formal training in graphic design.

How did you start out on FontStruct?

I came across FontStruct by chance, when looking for a particular font. I was immediately impressed by the work in the gallery and wondered if I would ever be able to build something similar. It took a while before I started playing and experimenting with the tool myself, but then I quickly got hooked.

If you had to choose two (or three) of your own FontStructions as favorites, which would they be and why?

Most of my FontStructions are self-initiated projects. One of the exceptions is The Pattern Exchange, which was commissioned as the display typeface for a curated group exhibition of the same name in Temple Bar Gallery in Dublin in 2015. Each glyph is a permutated version of a pattern, made up of a limited number of geometric shapes. Although I love to have the freedom to develop free work, it was wonderful to see one of my creations in use: printed on the programme cover and in vinyl on the gallery windows. The font can still be downloaded for free from the gallery website.

Some of my fonts have also appeared in Typodarium, IDN v26n3 and Edo Smitshuijzen’s Mashrabiya fonts and it is still very exciting to see my work in print.

The FontStruct competitions are both a challenge and an opportunity to explore new avenues and to experiment with concepts. Counter Culture was developed as an entry for the reverse competition in 2017. The design is based around the idea of representing letters as three-dimensional negative space in a two-dimensional medium. The angle in the letters makes it possible to create words as a continuous wall.

Counter Culture by four Counter Culture by four

What other work on FontStruct do you especially admire and why?

From the start I admired the fonts of some of the early adopters: elmoyenique’s aesthetic, that I feel a strong connection with; beate’s unique and beautiful approach to FontStructing; Frodo7’s possible and impossible 3D work; the theatrical quality of geneus1’s fonts; the fascinating experiments of thalamic and William Leverette; the perfection of fonts by architaraz and Yautja and the hard work of the Video Game Font Preservation Society. They were later joined by others who also developed their unique styles and visual language. Their support and advice have been very valuable over the years.

What are the aspects of FontStruct that make it appealing to you?

Although I have never met other site users in person, I have experienced FontStruct as a very supportive and inspiring creative community.

As a tool, FontStruct is accessible, intuitive, and self-explanatory. You can start using it from scratch and learn about its more complex possibilities and the larger world of type design as you go along. FontStruct instantly makes it possible to quickly compare two versions of a glyph side by side and to look at them as part of the larger family of glyphs. The preview window is an excellent way to quickly get a feeling for the rhythm of a variety of glyph combinations. Changing glyphs by cutting and pasting parts of other glyphs, rotating and flipping sections, it is all at the click of a mouse button.

I love working on a small grid using 2×2 filters. This allows for the use of all curved bricks at a maximum relative size. Features that the amazing Rob Meek has added over the years, such as stacking and the option to make your own composite bricks using up to 16 existing bricks, have hugely increased the possibilities of working on a small scale. In 2×2 filters every brick now occupies four gridcells, the bottom left is its anchorpoint. The other three cells become potential anchorpoints for other bricks that will overlap the original brick by a quarter or a half. The surrounding cells also become anchorpoints for bricks that can be nudged to overlap or fill spaces. Zephram created some tutorials that explain it all much better than I ever could.

The bricks themselves are often the starting point of new projects and they can dictate in which direction a font develops. I enjoy being immersed in the flow of that process: the frustration when I just can’t find the solution for one or two glyphs that refuse to become part of the bigger picture and the joyful and satisfying moment when things start falling into place. Sometimes that requires taking a bit of distance. Returning to a font in progress after weeks or even months can give a new perspective. Often a font develops in such a way that in the end I need to change the very glyph that started it all off and sometimes I can’t resist stripping down a font to its essentials.

Oluna by four

Creating a modular font is trying to find a language that is consistent throughout all the glyphs. The challenge is to use variations of certain glyphs and combinations of elements and to repeat shapes and angles without it becoming to rigid. That occasionally requires consciously breaking a typographic rule or breaking the FontStruct grid itself and some FontStructors apply this very successfully.

Sometimes, working on a FontStruction becomes a visual warmup exercise that can feed into other art projects. Even brick shapes and the grid itself have found their way into other media.

If you could add or improve one thing on FontStruct, what would it be?

I think there is scope for a FontStruct foundry, through which the best and most complete FontStructions could be sold.

I also like the idea of a one-day online symposium on modular font design, with workshops and presentations. It could be a nice way to meet and collaborate with and to learn from other FontStructors and others in the field.

Ever wondered why a picture is worth a thousand words? If that is true, would paintings be worth ten thousand words then? The answer is symbolic condensation™. Not the convert-gas-into-liquid condensation, but of the meaning ‘make more concentrated using symbols and symbolism’. What is a symbol then? It is a representation of a physical thing or an idea. The letters of a language script are all symbols, each standing for a particular sound (or sounds in some cases, depending on the context). Look at the letter symbol B and try not to think of it as the letter ‘bee’ despite it being just some shape. It is next to impossible. The power of symbols is unrestrained.

Symbolic condensation is the reason a picture is worth a thousand words because it contains imagery that can stand for more than what is depicted. Furthermore, combinations of different symbols in close proximity to another can concentrate the information even more. It takes a thousand words to unpack all the information stored in pictures. Artistic paintings take this concept to the next level by using only symbols to convey vast amount of meaning as concisely as possible. They have to be worth ten thousand words at a minimum.

Details Layer

The following conversation took place on WhatsApp over 8 hours—edited for spelling, grammar, clarity, and privacy. Some words are spelled two different ways depending on who was using it.

(tm):

How complicated life is, right? Just getting time to WhatsApp now requires coordination.

(four):

Amazing though that we can communicate from different parts of the world…

(tm):

True. In the US, in early 90s, AT&T had these future prediction ads with the tag line ‘You will’. One of them was about video calls. It sounded so futuristic then. Now they are a few years old already.
I was going through all your published fonts and the thing that struck me the most was the sheer variety of the works you have produced on those teeny tiny grids. Mind-blowing. Please tell me about your font making process.

(four):

OK, I suppose I am always interested in trying new things, taking things a step further all the time keeps the process interesting. A small idea can grow into a full font, but fonts often develop organically. I try not to hold on to predetermined ideas, but to stay open-minded about how a font evolves. Not every project becomes a full font, sometimes it doesn’t go beyond the exploration phase, but that is fine.

From A to B by four

(tm):

So, it starts and end with the FontStructor?

(four):

Occasionally I will do some quick sketches on paper, but a lot of the time it starts with moving some bricks around to see what happens. A few times I have taken files into Glyphs to refine them, but most of the time that isn’t necessary.
I do draw letters that never make it to FontStruct, simply because the medium doesn’t suit them.
The limitations of FontStruct are also its strength. In painting, working with a limited palette can help to make your work more harmonious. The same goes for fontstruct: working with a limited set of bricks adds to the consistency of the font. Working with solid brick shapes also helps to quickly get an understanding of positive and negative space.

(tm):

Why do you create fonts?

(four):

I create fonts because I enjoy the making process and it feeds my creative energy.

(tm):

How much time do you spend experimenting?

(four):

I go through phases in which I have more time to work with FontStruct and there are periods in which I am busy with other things and just check the livestream every couple of days.
Experimenting time varies. Sometimes the first letter dictates the form of a lot of the other glyphs. Other fonts go through different stages before they find their final form and changing one character may mean having to change all of them.

(tm):

I’ve had that happen to me a few times. You kinda don’t want to redo everything but also want to go with the better option.

(four):

Looking at your fonts, I know you have been in that same situation more than once.

(tm):

How did you get into art?

(four):

As a child I really enjoyed drawing and painting, playing with materials, building and making things. That never really changed.

Phoenix Park by four

(tm):

Were you ever a struggling artist? The struggles, the frustrations, the rewards, etc.

(four):

I am lucky to live in a place that has a vibrant and supportive arts community, so there was always acceptance; recognition comes over time. I suppose I was struggling with the work itself more when I was younger. I am more confident now because I have learned to trust the process. I know that if I give that my time and full commitment, things will come together. It is exciting to be selected for an exhibition or commission, but that doesn’t last forever. The reward that remains lies in the enjoyment of that process. It also means there doesn’t always have to be a product or an outcome.

(tm):

Well, going through your stuff, I notice how intricate it is. It certainly takes a lot of commitment to do such detailed work. Papercutting art, for example. I’ve used x-acto knife to do paper cuttings, but that leaves my finger and thumb numb. Once that numbness lasted for several day. I thought I had done permanent damage.

(four):

A lot of my work is labour-intensive and I enjoy that part of it. Working with an x-acto knife has become easier over time, but coming back to it after a longer break, it can still make my fingers numb.
One frustrating part of working as a visual artist is receiving rejection letters after spending hours or days writing proposals.

(tm):

But isn’t that true for any field?

(four):

Yes, that happens in a lot of jobs and in hindsight it has often been a good way of organising my thoughts.

(tm):

What are your thoughts and opinions about failure?

(four):

Looking at my papercuts, people often ask if I never make mistakes. I do make mistakes, but they become part of the piece.

(tm):

That’s the mark of an artist.

(four):

People also comment that I must have a lot of patience to do this work, but it actually works the other way round: it gives me a lot of peace to spend time at the table cutting paper.

(tm):

What is your art making process? Do you have music playing while doing it? What’s your studio like? I imagine your work—or even your home—to be very pristine and organized.

(four):

My studio is a little strawbale house that was built by friends. There is a lot of work stored in it and it is a bit of a mess at the moment, I am not a very tidy person.

Paul Bokslag’s studio (outside)

(four):

The process depends on the medium or the project. Some have to be planned out more than others.
Sometimes I listen to podcasts or music while working, other times I prefer the silence.

Paul Bokslag’s studio (inside)

(tm):

Awesome. Your studio looks very much like a studio. But not what I imagined.

(four):

I am so grateful for that space. I just noticed the FontStruct poster in the photo.

(tm):

Oh yeah look at that. How cool!

(tm):

Can you work on the floor? I mean, does your body allow it? Because I can’t.

(four):

Yes, to work on larger pieces, I need to sit on the floor. I use a camping mat to keep it comfortable. The studio is too small for that though, so it means looking for space elsewhere.

(tm):

What does it mean to be an artist to you?

(four):

As a visual person I am very aware of and interested in what I see around me, both in nature and the manmade environment. I really notice it if I haven’t been in the studio for a while. Making is important to me and keeps me healthy. A few years ago, through work, I learned about the five creative habits of mind: inquisitive, collaborative, persistent, disciplined, and imaginative. It really sums it up for me: being curious, working with others, seeing a project through, improving skills, and working with intuition. Creativity isn’t just about art though; it also applies to a lot of other areas in life.

(tm):

What kind of books do you read?

(four):

Literature, artbooks, travel books and some psychology.

(tm):

What are some of your favorite books?

(four):

Some books I enjoyed reading recently: Talking to Strangers by Malcolm Gladwell, On Looking by Alexandra Horowitz, The Salt Path by Rainor Winn.

(tm):

Any fiction novels?

(four):

The Third Policeman by Flann O’Brien, Norwegian Wood by Haruki Murakami.
The recent events in Afghanistan made me think of a book for young people that a local animation company adapted for a film: The Breadwinner by Deborah Ellis.
Sorry, got lost in the bookshelves for a while.

Velodrome by four

(tm):

I noticed one shelf of all yellow spines in your studio picture. National Geographic magazines?

(four):

Yes, that’s something I have been reading back to front for years every month. Someone gave me a subscription years ago and I have continued it ever since.

(tm):

Sounds educational.
What kind of music do you listen to?

(four):

Two weeks ago, I went to my first outdoor concert in a long time: Here’s an artist I want to share with you…MOXIE.

(tm):

What is your day like in general? Are you nocturnal or diurnal?

(four):

I need eight hours of sleep and get up reasonably early. The day very much depends on what projects I’m working on. And then there are always plenty of chores around the house.

(tm):

Chores never end. You only tell yourself these are all the chores that exist at any given time…and ignore the rest.

(four):

Which reminds me, I should check the washing machine. Again.

(tm):

:-) I always enjoy knowing other people also do mundane stuff that I have to do, like ironing. Makes me feel less weird.

(four):

Lots of mundane stuff here…

Ask anyone if they know what love is and most likely they will say yes instantaneously. Ask them to describe what love is and watch most falter in giving a clear answer. Some things are just too difficult to describe in words. This is not because the answer is not known but because as highly developed our languages are, they are not developed enough to convey esoteric information symbolically. In addition, there is further complication of trying to convey subjective understanding through a language that is not equipped to handle it. In fact, if it was at all possible, the brilliant writers and linguists over the centuries would have come up with it already.

Art is like that. It is too subjective and symbolic to be readily described in words. Its meaning is well understood though. We know something is art when we experience it. We can feel and understand its meaning (or at least a meaning) intrinsically, but cannot put it into words. What is more interesting to realize is that universal understanding of what art is is less important than realizing that there is a universal need for art. To be able to connect with something on a symbolic level that resonates within us is an innate need. In short, we cannot do without art.

(tm):

Your art is mostly abstract. Why do you choose to do such art? And so brilliant too. I think making abstract art people can connect with is way harder than organic art.

(four):

Thanks, I do some representational work as well, but there is so much more for me to explore in the world of abstraction.

(tm):

How do you come up with ideas for your art?

(four):

I could discover something in a painting and explore that a bit further in the next one. Some projects have a specific brief.

Painting by Paul Bokslag

(tm):

OK, this is your painting from your website. The smallest and the simplest I saw. Tell me about how you created it. How did you decide the colors?

(four):

OK, this is a small work on deep edge canvas. The painting wraps around the edge. The first layer are three vertical bands of acrylic paint: purple, turquoise, and blue. The second layer are lines drawn with an acrylic marker. Posca is a popular brand. I use Molotow because they are refillable and have a better choice of colours. Here I used green, red, and orange . You can work with masking tape to mark the edge of the bands.
I select colours intuitively as I go along.

Mural by Paul Bokslag

(tm):

Then there is this brilliant thing. It’s so modular yet so organic. I love it. How did you plan it? I can’t believe it was organically done. It’s like a multi-layer FontStruction.

(four):

This had to be planned out as a small sketch on paper, but I actually deviated from it when I applied the second layer. Sometimes on location things work out different from a sketch.

(tm):

How long did it take?

(four):

This took a good two weeks to complete.

(tm):

Is it paint or tape?

(four):

I used acrylic paint markers again, with a much wider tip. I made some templates using board, garden sticks and duct tape. They act as guides rather than a ruler, so the lines still have that hand drawn imperfect quality to them. There is a video on the internet in which you can see how it is done.
It is still strange to see myself on video and hear my voice…with Dutch accent…talking about creativity and process again.

(tm):

Awesome. Really.

(four):

This project was a wonderful opportunity that gave a huge boost to my practice.

(tm):

You deserve it, for sure.
Have you ever thought about doing art with letters?

(four):

Yes, I can’t wait to do a big lettering mural. I was thinking about it when I made Offstruct RGB, the colour pixel font.

(tm):

Is there one coming up?

(four):

No, no lettering mural coming up unfortunately. I am mentoring a group of young people who were asked to do a mural next month though, so I’ll probably end up with a brush in my hands as well.

Offstruct RGB by four Offstruct RGB by four

The diversity of representing different scripts in consistent style, yet distinct from other styles, yet still recognizable as the same original script is a constant source of amazement and enjoyment for some. It is no wonder typefaces—specifically display typefaces—are so fascinating. They are design for sure, but they also soothe the soul. You can call them art as well.

Finished Painting

(tm):

I must say, Paul…this has been a most interesting conversation. Thank you for hanging out with me on WhatsApp today.

(four):

I really enjoyed it too, Ata! It certainly was the longest WhatsApp marathon ever. Now back to the laundry…

Thanks to Rob Meek for conducting the important Base Layer part of this interview.

Thank you once more, Ata and Paul!

Fascinating read!

– Yautja — August 23, 2021 #

Another new gem in this wonderful summer series. Thank you Paul for letting us know your exciting views on art and life, and thank you Ata for bringing them to us. What a special season, compañeros!

– elmoyenique — August 23, 2021 #

Another wonderful interview! Congratulations to both Paul (four) and Ata (Thalamic & Minimum), as well as the assist by Rob (Meek). Looking forward to the next installment.

– goatmeal — August 23, 2021 #

Four interviews in one month? That’s incredible, Ata! I wonder who the next one will be?

– BWM — August 23, 2021 #

There could not have been a more fitting fontstructor for this fourth interview, and what a fantastically facinating read about such a cornerstone fonstructor~

– time.peace — August 23, 2021 #

@Ata, you’re a genius :) Fourth interview with four. Now that you’ve done it, it seems so obvious, but I could never guess it beforehand.

@four You’re a very interesting individual. Hope that you keep on doing what you love and keep on making this world better. Friends building you a studio, wow, how awesome!

– architaraz — August 26, 2021 #

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Gridfolk: Interview with four

Base Layer

Details Layer

Finished Painting

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